Welcome to a brand new episode of the VR Health Insider Podcast!

Be part of us as we welcome again Cix Liv of LIV, YUR and REK for Half 2 of our interview with him. He’s a digital health pioneer utilizing XR applied sciences to enhance the world of sports activities and health.

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Episode 5 – Cix Liv – Half 2

Preston Lewis: [00:00:00] Welcome to the VR Health Insiders podcast, for the creators who’re constructing the way forward for the VR and AR sports activities and health industries that may revolutionize the best way the world will play sports activities, work out and get match together with your hosts. Preston Lewis and Ryan DeLuca, the founders of Black Field VR, who’re constructing the world’s first full health VR fitness center and convey a long time of expertise from creating among the largest health know-how firms on the planet. They’re bringing collectively the perfect and brightest minds that will help you and your organization succeed within the VR health revolution.

All proper. Welcome to half two of our interview with Cix Liv, who’s a VR, AR XR guru and pioneer. In our earlier Half 1 Episode with Cix, he defined his background, which actually make clear how creators must have a ardour for the tech and trade they need to break into, and in addition to construct shortly and keep near the voice of the client to essentially perceive what they’re loving and hating.

Let’s choose up with our final query from the earlier podcast the place Cix shares insights as to one of the best ways to gather consumer suggestions for a [00:01:00] product.

Do you’ve any small ideas so far as the way you go about intelligently amassing that suggestions? Is it simply straight up scouring the Fb posts, establishing a Discord? Or do you’ve particular issues that you just do, for instance create surveys, do focus teams, or how does that course of go for you with amassing the suggestions?

Cix Liv: For those who talk with an individual, like, immediately, it’s type of just like the distinction between speaking to somebody by means of 4Chan and speaking to somebody by means of their face. Like face-to-face. Proper?

should you’re on 4Chan, you’re gonna shit on all the pieces. It’s nearly like straight from mind stem to face, proper? Like “this fucking is horrible, that shit blah, blah, blah, blah.” After which once they discuss to you, they’re gonna be like, “effectively, I feel you must, you recognize, enhance this” or no matter. Proper? So, I feel it’s getting each of these views. Proper? As a result of what you miss whenever you’re chatting with their customers are those that didn’t even care sufficient to speak to you, proper? Normally [00:02:00] the customers that you just’re speaking to are someplace between precise customers and professional customers. Proper?

And also you’re normally getting not numerous the suggestions of the those that simply turned immediately. Proper? They don’t wanna fucking reply to you. They don’t give a shit, they don’t need to let you know what their expertise was. So that you’re gonna have a blind spot on that class of potential customers. Proper?

So for these, you’re gonna must, like, discover it anecdotally by means of, like, Fb posts or dangerous critiques, and because of this I might all the time chase the dangerous evaluate individuals. For those who’re constructing that client product to know what’s churning individuals from the start and what enhancements can I make for these informal customers, after which the professional customers, ought to we cater to them or not? So I feel that getting these three views and perhaps bucketing individuals in these three issues, is an effective method to iterate in your product.

Preston Lewis: That’s good recommendation.

Ryan DeLuca: And it feels like, I imply, the tough half, after all is simply having that open [00:03:00] mindset. Proper? It’s very easy to, such as you mentioned, low cost the destructive critiques, or when someone’s telling you one thing you need to like clarify it. And reasonably than get extra details about why do they assume that, and what would they like, how would we alter it? Typically you instantly wanna go into, like, defensive mode. However I agree with you, like, interacting with the group as a lot as you presumably can. Creating alternatives for these interactions, like, by means of, like, locations like Discord, on-line, or for us really within the fitness center. Taking customers out to breakfast or lunch, and actually digging into it. And doing it from a spot of studying, not a spot of simply making an attempt to make them say good issues, and taking that mindset again to the product.

Preston Lewis: A few of our greatest suggestions has come from our type of squeakiest wheels, if you’ll. Those who, once they do strategy it, it’s like this, you recognize, they’re perhaps rage quitting on an expertise or one thing like that. And it’s, to your level, it’s good to have these individuals which can be a minimum of passionate sufficient to offer us the suggestions that we are able to hearken to after which iterate. As a result of it’s normally, it’s normally on the mark for bigger teams of our customers. So, yeah. Respect that recommendation, man. That’s superior.

Cix Liv: Yeah.

Ryan DeLuca: Properly, let’s get into thrilling new issues [00:04:00] that you just’re doing. So, um, now not with YUR, um, and now you’ve began a brand new AR sports activities firm referred to as REK and we’d like to study much more about that. So how’d that come about? What made you resolve to begin that and, uh, inform us somewhat bit in regards to the product.

Cix Liv: The most recent firm I began is REK. So it’s type of a mix of the 2 prior firms within the learnings that I had there. So, LIV, the largest studying was how will we attain the individuals exterior the headset? How will we make it fascinating for individuals to look at? For those who mix that with health, which you recognize, is in my view the largest use case of headsets, the information means that retention for health associated apps is twice as excessive as anything in VR.

Yeah, really, that’s one small level to say at YUR that we observed. So we had an underlying tracker that labored on the headset it doesn’t matter what. Proper? And what we acknowledged is that when individuals used their headset for health, they used it over twice as lengthy.

So the common utilization [00:05:00] size for a headset was about eighteen minutes. However once they used it for health it went as much as forty. That was an enormous studying for me, proper? So the massive studying from LIV was we have to present what persons are doing and we have to make it cool for different individuals to look at.

The largest studying from YUR was headsets getting used for health have the perfect retention. And, you recognize, I consider essentially it’s the largest use case of HMDs. Um, so should you mix these two learnings of health and spectating, you create, you recognize what is actually sports activities. Proper?

I began this firm underneath this premise that, you recognize, sports activities are going to be the following huge factor. And the explanation I consider that’s as a result of I did some ideation in augmented actuality and it type of fell into the identical problems with VR, which is, like, why the fuck do I placed on a headset? Proper? And numerous AR apps have that very same problem the place they’re like, “okay, I placed on a headset so I can play puzzles with my pal who’s additionally bodily there.” After which at that time, I’m similar to, “why don’t you simply fucking [00:06:00] put a puzzle there?” Proper? Like, why are we digitizing that have when it’s one thing that you are able to do in actual life?

Or like, “you need to do augmented actuality basketball? Why don’t you simply play basketball?” Proper? Like, the individual’s already there. A basketball is, you recognize, like twenty bucks. Proper? It’s like know-how making an attempt to unravel an issue that doesn’t exist. Proper?

So, you recognize, there was lots of people who had been doing VR sports activities and for me, I used to be like, “effectively that’s not gonna work in AR, since you’re ultimately simply gonna churn out and do the true factor.” Proper? Because of this I’ve an issue with VR sports activities; I consider that the issue with VR sports activities is that the final word aim is whenever you turn out to be adequate at it, you flip into the true factor.

What I turned fascinated with is, like, Tron. Let’s make a sport that doesn’t exist in actual life. You watch any sci-fi film that’s ever existed. Proper? [00:07:00] And once they present the way forward for sports activities it’s normally comparatively comparable. Proper? Individuals doing stuff and like dueling one another and killing one another digitally, doing stuff which you could’t do in regular sports activities. Like, you may’t kill your pal in basketball.

Sci-fi films type of demonstrated what the way forward for sports activities may seem like, and typically you don’t need to battle in opposition to the cultural zeitgeist of one thing and simply observe by means of with it.

I began this firm with my co-founder Bart.

He was a senior AR engineer at Apple. And you recognize, one of many issues he’s all the time been actually taken with is, what are legitimate use instances of AR that may really exist proper now? And so he constructed a laser tag recreation that gained the primary place for an open pc imaginative and prescient contest final 12 months.

And mainly I reached out to him and I used to be like, “hey, you recognize, like, we should always take into consideration what’s gonna be, like, the Beat Saber of AR? As we transfer to AR, what’s gonna be a correct use case of headsets?” So after we first got here collectively,[00:08:00] we had been testing issues like Area Pirate Coach Area.

So Area Pirate Coach Area, it’s thirty by thirty toes, and it’s like a laser tag recreation the place you run round and also you shoot at one another in VR. Proper? And so we had been testing video games like that, and to start with, it was such a fucking ache within the ass to discover a place that was thirty by thirty toes precisely. After which the best way that you just draw the Guardian with the Quest was an enormous nightmare. So it needed to even be even greater than that. And if it was exterior, we’d must hotspot it, and it might solely work throughout sure occasions of the day and all this nightmare. However then one other enormous factor that we observed, is that whenever you really bodily run in VR, it’s so uncomfortable. Your mind begins freaking out.

It’s like, “the place the fuck are you? Like, are you gonna run into one thing? Is somebody gonna mug you?” It needs to be AR whenever you’re operating. When you introduce operating, there needs to be augmented actuality.

Ryan DeLuca: [00:09:00] Like, I agree. Like, I’ve by no means skilled really operating in VR. Um, yeah, however you’d must, like, have a ridiculous quantity of belief.

Cix Liv: Yeah. I imply, should you’ve performed any boxing recreation in VR and punched something, proper? I keep in mind I punched a desk one time and my entire hand was bleeding, however I didn’t understand till I took off the headset and I used to be like, “holy shit.”

Preston Lewis: Oh, wow.

Ryan DeLuca: There’s much less ache notion, so I assume that could possibly be good and dangerous. There’s an entire subreddit of VR to ER. Proper? Uh, for a motive.

Cix Liv: Oh, is it actually referred to as VR to ER?

Ryan DeLuca: Oh yeah. Individuals are displaying them destroying issues or hurting themselves.

Preston Lewis: It messes with the immersiveness. Proper? As effectively. As a result of, yeah, such as you mentioned, like, when you do this one time, then you definitely’re not occupied with being within the expertise. You’re occupied with hitting one thing. Identical factor occurred to me once I was, uh, I used to be taking part in one of many baseball video games and it miscalibrated my place and so I used to be, like, inches from a wall and went to swing for a pitch and simply slugged the wall as laborious as I presumably may. Yeah, I’m not taking part in that anymore.

Cix Liv: The second you introduce [00:10:00] operating, that concern turns into a lot extra realized.

Preston Lewis: Fascinating.

Cix Liv: Your physique actually begins freaking out. Trigger it’s, like, is that an actual wall or is {that a} digital wall? The way in which these video games sync, they interlace the avatar on high of the individual. Proper? But when that’s off by any important diploma, you’re simply gonna run head first into you’re a pal. And simply slam into them. Proper? I essentially consider that after you develop out of the restricted footprint of VR, it needs to be AR, should you’re like operating and doing stuff like that.

However there’s huge, huge challenges with AR. One of the vital apparent ones, should you begin constructing for this, is that, like, any of those move by means of headsets, they don’t really phase the gamers correctly. So what finally ends up occurring is that all the pieces renders in entrance of the individual. So say that you just’re, like, competing in opposition to another person. Proper? And that individual is there and also you wanna put a aim behind them. Oh, it sounds easy. Proper? However you [00:11:00] can’t, as a result of the aim must render in entrance of them. It will probably’t minimize the individual out and render the thing behind them.

So you must do immensely sophisticated technical stuff to unravel one thing that wouldn’t exist in VR. Proper? Since you don’t have that very same drawback in VR the place you must, like, phase the individual out. So you must introduce an invisible avatar that renders on that very same individual, the place the individual is, after which you must ensure that the individual is synced correctly.

After which, you’re creating that cutout in entrance of the aim that’s behind them. In any other case, you’ll see the small aim, however it’ll render in entrance of the individual, even when they’re, like…

Preston Lewis: That’s fascinating. So it’s like real-time rotoscoping slash masking. That’s fascinating.

Cix Liv: Because of this, you recognize, after we introduced REK, or no matter, we did a very easy factor. We did spell duals. Proper? And the explanation we did spell duals had been, okay, you’re punching. This can be a mechanic that anyone can perceive. [00:12:00] And one of many greatest issues for me that I decide as successful standards, is the simplicity of preliminary adoption. So whenever you placed on a headset, the period of time that it takes somebody to know how you can play a recreation is extremely vital. Trigger I’ve demoed VR for hours and hours and hours, and the longer that point takes, the upper likelihood that they’re gonna churn out. Proper? In order that needs to be, like, as slim as doable.

So we began, okay, you’re punching on the individual, no buttons. Quite simple. Proper? After which the explanation it’s a spell duel, is since you don’t must render any objects behind them. So it wasn’t similar to, hey, we wakened and we had been like, “Hey, let’s do a spell twin like Harry Potter or some shit.” It was based mostly off the restrictions of the Quest headset. Proper?

Like, we are able to’t have targets behind them. We are able to’t do all this different fancy stuff with no huge quantity of engineering effort. So the bottom bar for us had been simply, “effectively, let’s punch Fireballs at one another.” And in order that’s type of the explanation why that preliminary demo was [00:13:00] the best way it was.

Preston Lewis: Small little be aware there for our customers, type of placing a pin in the truth that we talked about you getting scrappy with consumer suggestions and letting that type of information product choices. That was a great instance you simply gave of taking part in within the sandbox of what the know-how can really do and attain and discovering enjoyable, as quick as doable within the expertise. So, that’s good.

Ryan DeLuca: A giant a part of REK, and why individuals appear to love us a lot additionally, is having the ability to spectate. Proper? To allow them to really watch it from the skin. What you actually put a deal with with REK, was making it in order that different individuals can watch it in actual time and cheer them on in actual time such as you would a sport. And the way did you get that to work and what have you ever discovered from that kinda capability?

Cix Liv: We realized from fairly early on that having any sort of great obstacles, wouldn’t solely be complicated for the gamers, however create visible conflicts for spectators. Proper? Whenever you’re watching a soccer recreation otherwise you’re watching a soccer recreation or [00:14:00] one thing, they don’t have like partitions. Proper? Hypothetically if a digital camera existed in soccer they usually had all these partitions all over the place, you wouldn’t have the ability to see what the gamers are doing. It’s design challenges like that which can be vital, however they’re additionally limiting. Proper? Now you may’t do numerous the shit that you just’ve completed in VR with all these cool environments. Principally the atmosphere nearly disappears at that time. Proper? You possibly can’t have a fancy atmosphere should you’re making an attempt to spectate. So, I feel that that’s additionally gonna be one thing to consider that we’re gonna have to determine. We could must render one thing totally different for the gamers contained in the headset than what individuals exterior see. So, like, within the headset you’d see opaque pillars, however within the spectator view they’re clear. Proper?

Like, all these design choices that you just’re gonna must make, that you just wouldn’t must even take into consideration in VR, should you’re designing deliberately for spectating. The final word product that [00:15:00] we’re gonna launch is just not gonna be a spell duel recreation in the identical capability. Um, however yeah, we had been simply, you recognize, what’s the most simple factor that we are able to do? And what’s the mechanic that anyone on the planet can perceive? And yeah, that’s type of the place that got here.

We’ve been engaged on fairly a number of totally different recreation ideas and within the subsequent few months we’ll announce that, uh, and it’s not gonna be fairly the identical because the spell duel for the ultimate product, so.

Ryan DeLuca: Properly, now I’m excited to listen to extra about that.

I don’t know if there’s anything you wished to say about creating REK and like the selections that had been made round that.

Cix Liv: So we initially got here on this thought, like, “hey, we’re gonna do LBE and stuff”. Proper? After which we really went by means of the method of making an attempt to get into the LBE recreation and, uh, whew, man, I don’t…

Ryan DeLuca: Location based mostly leisure, so precise retail footprint. Proper?

Cix Liv: Yeah, yeah. So we checked out Sandbox and we had been like, okay, Sandbox has all these places, [00:16:00] however they’re capital costly, you recognize? So then we had been like, “okay, so we’ll ship individuals {hardware} and have them set it up at their venue.” And we had been like, “okay, however then we’re gonna have like a 15 12 months previous contemporary outta highschool making an attempt to handle this shit. In order that’s gonna be a nightmare and a half making an attempt to, like, handle that remotely.” Um, so we had been simply, you recognize, we tried to work some channel companions on it and we simply realized the LBE technique is one thing that we simply couldn’t afford, actually. You already know, we couldn’t afford to even attempt it.

So we’re going again to approaching it as creating client product. That’s additionally like the place my specialty comes from, like constructing in VR, is on the patron facet. So we’re gonna have a VR mode that connects to an AR mode, and our greatest focus is gonna be constructing the bridge between these two worlds. How do you really get individuals to convey a headset exterior? And I feel that’s an unsolved drawback. And the best way I like to elucidate it, in essentially the most succinct means doable, is REK is [00:17:00] making an attempt to do to headsets what Niantic, you recognize, Pokemon Go did to telephones. Which is get individuals to, like, consider their gadgets as nearly like a health extension of themselves. Or, like, utilizing that to stroll round.

I do assume that in some unspecified time in the future we could return into LBEs, however it’s seemingly gonna be extra like UFC tournaments, excessive manufacturing worth, you recognize, advertisers, no matter. As a result of, yeah, it’s actually costly and we don’t have the, you recognize, we didn’t have the cash to do this. Proper?

Preston Lewis: We’ve observed that as you’re constructing these experiences, one of many belongings you’ve completed, you and the workforce have completed very well is making them look cool. Not solely within the expertise, however within the advertising. We type of talked about the viral movies and issues that you just did early on. It sounds kinda like a easy factor. Proper? To make issues look cool. As a result of that is future tech, this new tech, and it looks like it’d be simple to make it cool. However, with Black Field VR, we’ve needed to battle the notion within the early days, a minimum of that VR Health was just for [00:18:00] tremendous techy individuals.

However you guys have completed simply an superior job making it approachable and funky. Even wanting on the REK movies, these are additionally getting a bunch of consideration and simply kudos to you and the workforce on making the tech look cool.

Ryan DeLuca: It’s a such a great level. So many occasions some new VR health factor comes out or exercise recreation, and it’s similar to the worst graphics, the worst advertising. And clearly that’s not a very powerful factor, you recognize, in numerous experiences. Like, we all the time discuss Minecraft, for instance, you recognize, beginning out extra pixelated type of stuff.

It’s all the time, like, man, individuals wanna look cool. Like, you recognize, such as you mentioned, it’s like no person needs to journey a Segway, however we’ll journey a cool chicken scooter down the highway. Proper? You already know, it’s like the identical factor, only a totally different configuration. So, such a great level that Preston made is, like, all of your stuff appears fashionable and funky, that folks wanna be part of it.

Preston Lewis: It’s superior. Earlier than we jumped on right here, I used to be a few of your stuff and also you type of poked enjoyable on the, uh, what was it? Horizon Worlds or one thing like that. And you’ve got, like, you’ve the type of the dorky type of graphics and stuff, after which you’ve you’re a hero shot. I believed that was actually good. I imply, that’s one other factor that’s actually vital, once more, in driving [00:19:00] adoption is that device of contrasting. Proper?

And displaying individuals, like, it doesn’t must be this, it may be this. Something that we’ve seen you do, it’s, you’ve completed a very good job with that.

Cix Liv: You’re speaking in regards to the tweet the place it was like their Metaverse our Metaverse, after which it was just like the… yeah.

Preston Lewis: Yeah. That was superior.

Cix Liv: I imply, to be trustworthy, Meta is making it fairly simple, okay. I’ve to be considerably on their good graces, so I’m sorry upfront. However, uh, you actually gotta work in your advertising. The Horizons World stuff, I consider, is so dangerous that it’s taking down our entire trade.

I consider Horizon Worlds is so poorly marketed, and such a foul product, that’s taking down your complete VR house. As a result of whenever you go into the cultural zeitgeist of speaking to individuals about Metaverse. Proper? The very very first thing they’re gonna consider is the shitty wanting Zuck avatar and, you recognize, Horizon Worlds And that’s by intention, that Meta is, like, that is the Metaverse, proper? And it’s discrediting [00:20:00] what so many cool issues that we’ve constructed on this house seem like. And it’s actually disappointing, as a result of I feel it’s such a foul allocation of assets, and it’s such a foul search for headsets that it’s really hurting all of us.

Ryan DeLuca: Among the commercials they make are superb. You already know, once they present, like, what it’s prefer to be in VR and put the headset on. Now you’re on this enormous factor and simply thoughts blowing. And also you’re proper, and clearly it’s nonetheless early days, so we’re all hopeful. Proper?

As a result of I agree with you, like, with the quantity of funding that they’re placing into it, they will make or break it, you recognize? And in the event that they do an awesome job, the {hardware} will get to the place it must be. It’s gonna be very useful for all of us. However you’re proper, it may convey us down if it’s not the product that the mainstream needs.

Cix Liv: I might look into the PICO if I had been you guys, I don’t know should you used the PICO 4 in any respect, however, like, this factor is all the pieces the Quest 2 needs to be. It’s thinner, it’s smaller, it’s extra light-weight, it’s designed extra for health. It’s all the pieces the Quest 2.5 ought to have been. And as a substitute, they got here out with a Quest Professional, which is $1,500 that has face [00:21:00] monitoring and eye monitoring, however it’s even heavier than the Quest 2. And the burden was already a giant drawback. I simply I don’t get it.

Preston Lewis: You talked in regards to the AR, VR experiences that you just’ve constructed or are constructing. What are your favourite AR, VR sports activities and health experiences immediately? And what makes ’em good?

Cix Liv: I actually like this recreation referred to as Blaston. I used to be taking part in it quite a bit within the pandemic. So it’s a twin recreation, it’s one v. one, and also you’re taking pictures these varied velocity projectiles at one another and there’s no type of locomotion. You’re each on these small pillars, after which what it finally ends up turning into, is like, you’re having to do numerous dodging… it’s actually energetic. I feel I hit like a thousand energy an hour taking part in that at full depth. I actually preferred that.

One of the best sports activities sort recreation in VR proper now might be Nock. So should you’ve tried Nock, Nock makes use of arm locomotion the place you maintain a set off and also you type of fly within the air after which it makes use of [00:22:00] bows. So that you’re taking pictures arrows at a ball.

I feel my greatest recommendation for individuals who construct VR and AR content material, is on the absolute basic of what that is, it has to really feel good. If it doesn’t really feel good, nothing else fucking issues. You can also make the perfect graphics on the planet, you may make an awesome storyline, you may make regardless of the fuck particle results which can be superb. If the bottom mechanics don’t really feel good, none of that shit issues.

And you recognize what completely, completely represents that is Gorilla Tag. For those who take a look at a screenshot of Gorilla Tag, you’d be like, “what the fuck are you doing?” They’ve handed Beat Saber for essentially the most critiques on the Quest now. They’re now the primary fucking utility, they usually’re not even within the retailer. And the explanation for that goes again to the purpose that I made right here, at its baseline, there’s a locomotion methodology. And the locomotion methodology is mainly you operating in your fingers. Proper? [00:23:00] No buttons, no complexity by any means. And it’s train. It’s like tag, it’s mainly like tag for youths. And the children are in there and it positively will get offensive quite a bit, so perhaps that’s why they’re not in the principle retailer. Nevertheless it’s mainly youngsters operating on their arms, yelling at one another. And that turned the primary. I’m not even kidding. They’re simply screaming at one another they usually’re simply operating like this.

Preston Lewis: That’s superior.

Cix Liv: Feels good. Feels good. It doesn’t really feel good nothing fucking issues. And your app goes to flop.

Ryan DeLuca: Anytime I’m making an attempt to reload a gun in considered one of these sophisticated type of first individual shooters, I assume my definition of VR, they’re all first individual, you recognize?

Nevertheless it’s like, I’m hitting my controllers collectively, or I’m making an attempt to do that factor and the man’s coming at me, and I can’t fairly get the little components of reload. It’s like, it kills it for me, as a result of it’s like, I’m certain I may get good at, I’m certain if I performed at one other ten hours, I’d in all probability like, you recognize, don’t have any drawback.

However at first it’s simply, you’re simply, it’s very awkward.

Cix Liv: You already know Denny from Cloud Head, proper? He’s a VR OG and he’s made a bunch of [00:24:00] experiences. His unique video games had been type of like Myst, like, Name of the Starseed, the place you want, would mainly resolve puzzles in VR with actually excessive constancy. And he constructed Pistol Whip, you guys know Pistol Whip, proper? And Pistol Whip is mainly similar to Time Disaster on rails by way of, like, the psychological math and what you want to do. You already know, you’re going from extraordinarily complicated, and dynamic and superb graphics into, like, mainly Cel Shaded Time Disaster.

It was his most profitable title. And, like, I feel numerous recreation builders are mad about that. And so they go, ” why can’t now we have superb graphics? Why can’t now we have dynamic storylines? Why can’t now we have all this different shit?” And it’s like, effectively, if it doesn’t really feel good, persons are simply gonna use their console. They’re simply gonna go play their Ps. Proper?

Preston Lewis: You type of alluded to designing in recreation mechanics and interplay patterns which have decrease cognitive load, proper? In order that the sport continues to be enjoyable and folks keep immersed. So what do you are feeling like [00:25:00] is lacking from the AR, VR sports activities and health trade immediately?

Cix Liv: Properly, if I informed you that I’d be making a gift of my secrets and techniques.

Preston Lewis: There we go.

Cix Liv: So I’ve divulged all the pieces.

Preston Lewis: Positive, inform us your first identify, then. Positive. Simply inform us your first identify.

Ryan DeLuca: Yeah, what’s your actual identify?

Preston Lewis: Yeah, what’s your start identify?

Cix Liv: I feel which you could type of, like, paint the image of what I feel goes to be the longer term based mostly off what I’ve mentioned up to now. Which is, you recognize, low cognitive load, simple to know, motive to placed on the headset is energetic, you recognize, fascinating for individuals to look at. After which the largest difficulty in our house, by far, is working across the limitations of the {hardware}. Proper? As a result of like, oh my God, I can let you know what number of occasions I ideated on some shit, and I turned out as, like, can’t do it. It’s, like, ninety p.c of the shit you construct in our trade, falls into “sounds good, doesn’t work.”

Sincere to God, it’s like nearly each fucking concept that I’ve, it’s [00:26:00] like, “oh, you recognize, I can’t do this due to Fb platform management. I can’t do this as a result of we don’t have decrease physique monitoring. I can’t do this as a result of the hand monitoring wasn’t educated to work exterior, so it solely works in low gentle environments. I can’t do this as a result of, you recognize, the second you place a weight in your hand, it might’t detect your hand anymore. So you may’t quantify the health.” Proper?

One other huge difficulty with creating for AR, is that you just don’t have entry to the digital camera information, it simply mainly is available in as a shader. That’s it. And in order that limits an entire bunch of stuff that you are able to do. After which there’s no loss of life digital camera in it, so you may’t simply phase gamers out. You already know, there’s some like laser tag ideas that folks have made with the Quest. And so they create this video and it makes it look so good.

It’s, like, “okay, there’s individuals of their workplace they usually’re hiding behind packing containers they usually’re taking pictures at one another, that’s gonna be so fucking superb.” Proper? And then you definitely go about to do it your self and develop it, like something like that, and also you’re, like, “holy shit, this [00:27:00] is unattainable”. Like, to start with, you may’t flip off the guardian for the Quest until you’re in dev mode. Okay? How many individuals are in dev mode. Proper? Like, individuals on SideQuest, nobody else. So, you may’t make an AR expertise that has the guardian off. And also you’re gonna what, draw a thirty foot guardian each single time in your workplace? Proper? In order that’s an enormous difficulty. After which I discussed the problem of, like, rendering individuals on high of it, after which the truth that there’s no shared SLAM maps?

So, like, if I’ve a SLAM map in my headset, I can’t share it to any headset round me within the Quest ecosystem. You possibly can within the Vive, so the Vive has shared SLAM maps. So, I’ve to go map your complete scene with my headset, after which I can’t share that SLAM map with anyone else. So all these ideas that folks present are very conceptual, as a result of you may’t really do numerous this shit.

The factor that’s aged me essentially the most on this [00:28:00] house is the “sounds good, doesn’t work” shit, which seems to be like ninety p.c of something that you just consider.

Ryan DeLuca: It’s fascinating, as a result of normally what we hear is “it’s irritating as a result of most individuals don’t have a headset”, you recognize? In order that’s already the limitation that we’re coping with. Is that, it’s not that everyone’s obtained a headset, however we are able to’t do these issues. That simply provides onto it, and it simply creates much less causes for individuals to get the headset.

And we run into the identical issues. It’s, you recognize, we’re caught in, uh, you recognize, SteamVR ecosystem. And, you recognize, we’re utilizing the Vive Execs at, uh, Black Field. As a result of now we have to have some sort of method to do exterior monitoring of arms and fingers, with out coping with occlusion from regular hand monitoring for various actions, like squats and deadlifts and overhead press.

And so we’d love to have the ability to use a wi-fi headset. We’re nonetheless caught with the wired headset, as a result of we’d like to have the ability to have mainly the Vive monitoring pucks, or we use the Tundra Trackers. And, you recognize, there’s different issues like Kinect-style cameras that we probably may use. We’ve examined a bunch of these issues, however they’re not quick sufficient, you recognize, as a result of we’re doing numerous punching and slicing and actions, or they take care of occlusion as [00:29:00] effectively.

So, you recognize, it appears like all the pieces’s actually shut. Like, man, good hand monitoring and, you recognize, if we may simply get that in order that the sphere of view is somewhat bit higher. Full physique monitoring, even when they’re simply type of like guess somewhat bit round, it could possibly be actually fascinating. However, such as you mentioned, these shared experiences are just about unattainable with the restrictions of this closed down {hardware}, and we’re gonna have all that stuff quickly, you recognize? And when are we gonna have all that stuff we wish? It could possibly be tomorrow, it could possibly be an announcement from someone tomorrow. It could possibly be three years from now and we simply don’t know.

You’ve talked about Beat Saber, like that modding group. I completely agree, like, with out LIV, with out that modding group, and all the opposite songs and all the opposite stuff, it wouldn’t be the place it’s immediately. It’s clearly nonetheless an superior recreation, however it might need been extra of an Audioshield and get some traction, however not numerous traction prefer it did. And so they’ve taken numerous that stuff away, particularly talking in regards to the Quest platform, which is the largest platform immediately, after all.

Preston Lewis: The following query was gonna be describe your excellent AR, VR sports activities and health expertise. Nevertheless it feels like it’s staying inside the sandbox of the {hardware} that’s at present [00:30:00] accessible. Attempting to future solid somewhat bit, however not going loopy, as a result of as you talked about, should you construct too far forward all you’re gonna have is a bunch of tears and no shipped merchandise.

You talked in regards to the spectator side of it, which we from day one we thought was tremendous vital in Black Field VR. We all the time say that the great factor about sports activities, constructing a sports activities title, is which you could construct it and it’s infinitely replayable. Versus having to truly construct a title that’s type of this linear storyline that has x quantity of hours and then you definitely gotta construct it once more. So, that’s enormous. We completely agree.

And never just for the enjoyable of the consumer, however we actually do consider that AR, VR spectating modes could possibly be superb. Proper? We’ve all seen the World of Warcraft slash League of Legends, gigantic spectacles of eSports and stuff like that, so feels like the identical web page there.

After all provides you a exercise, after all is immersive, makes use of patterns that aren’t an excessive amount of cognitive load. And mainly, simply, we have to one way or the other crack the whip on the {hardware} producers and get them to construct stuff quicker for us, as a result of[00:31:00] that’s what we run into.

Cix Liv: I might attain out to PICO although. The PICO 4, you recognize, the 2 predominant focuses they’ve are health and video games, they usually appear to be taking health very severely. There’s additionally a very fascinating motive for that, by the best way.

In China, they’ve caps on what number of video, how a lot you may play a online game per day. And should you can persuade the federal government that it’s a health gadget, you escape of that limitation. In order that’s really one of many small causes they’re hyper-focused on health, is that if they will persuade the federal government that it’s a health gadget and never a recreation gadget, they will really escape of that limitation.

That’s a small factor I found by taking place the trail of localizing to China.

Ryan DeLuca: Properly, man, we’ve discovered a lot from you. I feel we obtained like 1,000,000 notes right here. This’ll positively be our longest podcast ever, up to now. So, uh, actually recognize it. I feel to wrap issues up, what’s subsequent for you? What’s subsequent for REK? We’ve, you’ve heard quite a bit about, uh, these upcoming variations of the sport and what it’s not gonna [00:32:00] be, and somewhat little bit of what it’s gonna be, however the place, what’s subsequent for you and, and what are you guys, uh, as much as subsequent?

Cix Liv: I assume you’d must observe my Twitter.

Preston Lewis: There we go. Name to motion.

Cix Liv: C I X L I V. Um, I’m prepared to expose all the pieces in regards to the previous of how I obtained to this point, however among the stuff that we’re engaged on sooner or later, I’d prefer to maintain underneath wraps till we announce it. We’re positively going to be constructing one thing that works in AR and VR, and we’re positively going to construct a companion utility that lets you spectate that. After which, hopefully in some unspecified time in the future, transfer this into tournaments with brackets and leagues and, you recognize, all of the stuff that sports activities have.

I feel one of many huge issues I wanna go away individuals with, that’s one thing that, is perhaps a light-weight bulb second. Is after we had been doing our exams, we did a pilot, down in, um, Los Angeles. There have been a number of various things that occurred that made me assume we’re happening the suitable path.

Um, there was a [00:33:00] boyfriend and girlfriend who had been, you recognize, the boyfriend was going to go play in opposition to his pal. And earlier than he performed, and he was placing on a headset, his girlfriend came to visit to him, gave him a kiss, and mentioned, “you higher win”. After which we had a second the place a dad was watching his son, and he was taking part in in opposition to his son’s pal, and he was standing there subsequent to the TV like, you recognize, cheering on his son, like, very, very clearly, cheering on his son. And he may see his son and he may see how he was taking part in his pal and all this different stuff. And so these moments had been actually vital.

However the factor that basically gentle bulb this to me, is that if this was a online game that by no means would’ve occurred, as a result of what would’ve occurred is, to start with, that girlfriend can be like, “what the fuck are you doing?” Like, “we’re at a venue”, like, “why are you going and sitting and taking part in League of Legends?”

Like, you recognize, “we’re right here to have enjoyable, what the fuck are you doing?” Proper? As a result of she couldn’t take part in what was occurring, as a result of she’d don’t have any [00:34:00] thought or the context of what the fuck is occurring. Proper? And so that will’ve occurred. After which the identical factor would’ve occurred with the dad and his child. The place if his child came to visit and sat down and performed a online game, though it was, you recognize, quote on quote eSports, he’d be like, “what the fuck are you doing? We’re out right here to have enjoyable.” Once more, as a result of he couldn’t take part or perceive what was occurring. And so my huge obsession with this house is that I consider if we nail this, that is greater than your complete XR house, as a result of it breaks out of the house like that Beat Saber video did 5 years in the past.

And that’s why I do that. I consider that if that is nailed, XR sports activities turn out to be greater than your complete house, as a result of it might get adoption from individuals who aren’t in headsets. And that’s why I’m like, gentle bulb second. That is it. You already know? Now, whether or not or not the {hardware} is gonna get there in time and, you recognize, [00:35:00] all this different fucking bullshit we take care of in our house is one other query. However, you recognize, that’s the hope. That’s the dream.

Preston Lewis: Yeah, so, all proper, that’s on a regular basis now we have. Thanks a lot, Cix for being right here with us. I’m certain our viewers actually appreciates it. And for anybody within the viewers, as all the time, we’ll put something within the present notes to get into contact with Cix and to get entangled in what he’s doing. Actually recognize it. Thanks once more.

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