Welcome to a brand new episode of the VR Health Insider Podcast!
Be a part of us as we welcome Joshua Kozak of HASfit and Loodo. He’s a digital health pioneer utilizing XR applied sciences to enhance the world of sports activities and health.
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Transcript:
Episode 3 – Joshua Kozak
Preston Lewis: [00:00:00] Welcome to the VR Health Insiders podcast, for the creators who’re constructing the way forward for the VR and AR sports activities and health industries that may revolutionize the best way the world will play sports activities, work out and get match together with your hosts. Preston Lewis and Ryan DeLuca, the founders of Black Field VR, who’re constructing the world’s first full health VR gymnasium and produce a long time of expertise from creating among the largest health expertise corporations on this planet.
They’re bringing collectively the perfect and brightest minds that will help you and your organization succeed within the VR health revolution.
Right now we now have a digital health business pioneer, Josh Kozak. Josh, thanks for being right here.
Joshua Kozak: Yeah, it’s a pleasure, honored, particularly being an early visitor. We’ll look again on this in a pair years from now and this will probably be bragging rights.
Preston Lewis: Heck yeah, man. Made it.
Ryan DeLuca: That’s proper. Yeah. Think about being one of many first Joe Rogan company? That’s gotta be fairly cool.
Joshua Kozak: There we go.
Preston Lewis: So,simply to kick it off, why don’t you simply give our viewers slightly fast intro into who you might be and inform me slightly bit about your background?
Thanks Preston. As you stated, my title is Joshua Kozak. I’ve been [00:01:00] within the well being and health business for twenty years now. however, uh, you realize, within the final thriteen years or so, strictly on the digital aspect. I used to be early to train streaming again when your important choices had been DVDs.
We began streaming again in like 2010, 2011. That’s led to over a billion exercises streamed over the past decade. After which in 2014 we had been early companions with Android Put on and Apple Watch, and began constructing sensible watch apps, leveraging the movement sensors and the apps to launch a set of apps that would observe human motion from sleeping to train, et cetera.
That resulted in acquisition presents from three of the highest 4 sensible watch producers on the time. After which most lately, in 2018, partnered with a big healthcare firm to begin a healthcare slash wellness slash health firm. Form of the convergence of therapeutic train in healthcare.
Joshua Kozak: And, we offered that in January 2021, and now I’mlooking in direction of the following [00:02:00] frontier, which is why I’m right here becoming a member of y’all.
Ryan DeLuca: You’ve been in so many alternative components of health and expertise and utilizing completely different applied sciences, it’s simply superb if you hear like a billion exercises served. So a billion coach Kozaks on the market. Many exercises.
Joshua Kozak: Yeah, I do know. It’s sort of bizarre, particularly as a result of it’s like I don’t get to see them nose to nose. So it’s all simply shot in a studio with only a couple individuals standing there. It’s not likely till I am going out into the actual world and get the privilege of assembly some individuals which are following the exercises, that it turns into actual.
Ryan DeLuca: Yeah, little question.
Preston Lewis: All of your followers.
Inform us extra about HASfit, so slightly bit extra about, what’s it? How’d you begin it? Why’d you begin it?
Joshua Kozak: Nicely, because of HASfit, I’m formally like an E-list superstar, I believe slightly longer and I would qualify for Dancing With the Stars.
I’d be out within the first spherical, I can let you know that a lot. , with HASfit, we’ve delivered full size house exercise movies and we’ve at all times used YouTube as a high of funnel. So individuals discover us through YouTube after which they transfer downstream to our personal merchandise, which is our cell apps, our sensible TV apps and our web site.
We actually serve nearly each demographic [00:03:00] and modality you would consider.
And so people who don’t know, it’s mainly streaming exercises with Josh. And your spouse, proper?
Joshua Kozak: Yeah, my spouse and I, we lead ’em collectively. I acquired began alone. So really earlier than I met her. Um, and you realize it’s humorous, the viewers was like ninety % male at the moment, proper?
After which I introduced on her and it was like the proper ying and yang mixture. And now we’re like fifty-fifty, and it simply makes every thing higher and simpler.
Preston Lewis: That’s so cool.
Ryan DeLuca: So superior. So, inform us slightly bit extra about what you discovered. Such as you clearly, such as you stated, you don’t see immediately the individuals which are doing the exercises, however I’m positive you get a variety of suggestions.
What kind of suggestions do you get? What have you ever discovered concerning the health shopper by way of these streaming companies?
Joshua Kozak: Yeah, rather a lot, but it surely’s solely a thirty minute podcast, so I’m gonna attempt to maintain it quick. I’m gonna attempt to maintain it quick and candy. one of many largest advantages that we now have is admittedly simply the connection that we’ve been in a position to construct with the viewers, in that, they actually recognize seemingly having us being of their lounge. It’s one of many largest add-ons that we now have. We attempt laborious to be personable and actual,and never like a pretend character placing on a present, however any person’s like “Oh, my legs are literally burning too.”
Like, “Oh, that is [00:04:00] really laborious for me.” Like, “Oh, shoot, I simply sprained my hamstring in the course of the shot.” Or no matter. So, simply being actual and real. However then, I believe the opposite factor, too, simply understanding thatso many individuals have limitations which are getting of their method from exercising. And that could possibly be issues like, full-time jobs and duties with children, to bodily illnesses, et cetera. So, you realize, we wanna stay on this world the place we really feel like, “Oh, all you gotta do is as straightforward as stepping on the market and hitting the play button.”
However, all people has all of this stuff which are continuously pulling at them, pulling them away from being to perform their health objectives.
Ryan DeLuca: It’s fascinating having the ability to have that connection, such as you stated, and simply realizing that the exercise is there, like they simply have to press play and do the exercise. And also you hear from the those who do the exercise, however what we don’t hear from are the those who didn’t press play and so they didn’t stream that exercise that was there. And so it’s fascinating, such as you stated, there’s a lot in individuals’s lives that may maintain them again from that. What have you ever seen that works for that shopper? What doesn’t appear to work for them? And, extra about that.
Joshua Kozak: Yeah, I believe, simply from the enchantment of getting simply accessible house exercises, you realize, it removes a variety of the [00:05:00] limitations to entry. The power to say: “Hey, I don’t must look presentable to go to the gymnasium. I don’t have to fret concerning the commute.” We’ve got a variety of younger dad and mom, you realize, like, “Oh, I put my little one down for a nap and I’m gonna hit a fast thirty minute exercise, whether or not they sleep within the different room or whereas they’re within the room, I’m gonna work out.”
And so for HASfit’s viewers, it’s actually about simply the simply accessibility and identical to having the ability to hit play at any time with no excuses each time they’ve ten to thirty minutes of their day. And so the individuals which are profitable, are the those who construct that behavior to search for these moments and get that exercise in.
So it sounds such as you’re proper there of their lounge. You’re chatting with the patron in a extremely natural, approachable method, which once we checked out your movies up to now, it undoubtedly has that actually approachable feeling to it, which I believe is nice for individuals.
As a result of, I imply, as we all know, lots of people are intimidated by health on the whole. So it’s superior that you just’ve approached the intimidation issue by being actual in your finish. However then additionally, as you talked about, lowering the friction, which will increase adherence and issues like that. Tremendous cool.
Joshua Kozak: Precisely. Yeah.
Ryan DeLuca: It’s really an fascinating level, too. Typically if you see skilled [00:06:00] streaming instructors, like Peloton instructors or Apple Health instructors, individuals appear to assume they’ve this like excellent life and it’s, “Oh, they’ve excellent motivation and it’s easy for them.” And “If it was my job to work out all day, then I’d be in form.” And it’s actually laborious to narrate to individuals like that, regardless that behind the scenes these individuals have simply as many struggles, if no more than lots of people. However, it’s good to have any person that appears extra actual that folks can relate to, like Preston was saying.
That’s one of many issues that’s mistaken with the health business as a complete, is there’s thismisconception that it’s a must to be excellent. That each one these individuals’s our bodies are excellent, 300 and sixty 5 days out of the 12 months.
Joshua Kozak: After which when you’re not that, “Why am I even attempting?” And “If I can’t work out seven days every week for an hour a time, then what’s the purpose?” However that’s not actual world, that’s not actual life. We’ve been profitable in being extra real and genuine.
I believe I acquired my first like weight set at 13 years outdated. I’ve been exercising since then. I’ve to, like,inspire myself and provides myself a pep discuss. I’m gonna work out later at present and I’m gonna want, give myself slightly pep discuss earlier than I do.
You dovetailed proper into the following query, so I received’t spoil that one. [00:07:00] However,I simply wanna take a fast second, as a result of our viewers are the builders as properly,creating this stuff. So I believe one sort of pin to place in it’s, that observe that a variety of creators, after they really feel like they wanna create one thing nice on this business, they assume that it must be this loopy excessive manufacturing worth. After which, talking of friction, not solely on the health aspect, however friction on the creator aspect, you’re identical to, “Ah, crap, I don’t have the money to get this fancy gear or the money to do that loopy studio”, or no matter. So I believe that’s the opposite factor, other than serving the client, one of many cool issues that it appears you’ve carried out with the HASfit stuff is simply saying, “Hey, I’m simply gonna use the gear I’ve,and get it on the market as a creator and serve the audiences as rapidly as potential as properly.”
Preston Lewis: So I believe that’s a great observe to point out individuals that you just’ve actually confirmed the lean, fast, manufacturing facet as properly.
Joshua Kozak: Yeah, simply to comply with up with that, briefly. I acquired began with 100 {dollars} Canon Energy Shot digicam that I picked up. It was, like, not a camcorder, like a digital digicam for these older of us listening that bear in mind these earlier than we had smartphone to take them.
It could solely shoot ten minutes at a time. So I might shoot ten minutes, after which it might go off, after which I’d must [00:08:00] restart and put every thing again collectively. All that to say, I believe, individuals are coming when you will be your actual self and be somebody that they’ll relate to. They’re gonna present up for that over high quality lighting and 4K video.
Preston Lewis: Yep.
Ryan DeLuca: Very true. Yeah, so on that observe, like we talked about, what do you see as the largest drawback with the health business at present? We sort of talked about slightly bit concerning the problem, and the those who appear to be excellent and we’re being as natural as potential. However, in health on the whole, and present health corporations, there’s a complete bunch of stuff on the market, so many streaming companies, so manygyms, and several types of exercises, and several types of gear and wearables. There’s so many issues, however but, we’re extra overweight and we’re extra outta form than ever. And we at all times discuss that stat of eighty plus % of individuals aren’t in a position to follow a health program, even with all these choices.
Why do you assume that’s? What does the health business get mistaken at present?
That’s an awesome query, you realize, and it’s identical to you talked about, I imply, lots of of thousands and thousands and billions of {dollars} going into startups attempting to resolve this drawback, and we’re not any nearer to reaching it.
Joshua Kozak: And after I take a look at the business and what issues they’re attempting to resolve for, they’re attempting to resolve for schooling, and so they’re attempting to resolve for like self quantification or metric monitoring. [00:09:00] Proper? Like new trackers, et cetera. However, when you really converse to individuals, that’s not the issues they’re experiencing.
Individuals aren’t not exercising trigger they don’t know what’s good for them. By now, all people is aware of. Like all people at each nook of the planet, they know they need to be exercising. That’s not a secret, you realize? So, the schooling aspect, it’s like, what are we doing right here, of us?
After which, the self quantification aspect actually solely helps these which are doing every thing else proper. And that’s gonna give them like that high two to 5 % edge in enchancment. And that’s nice if you’re already getting eight hours of sleep at night time, you’re already consuming all, you’re getting all your diet, you already exercising, you’re already getting all of yournon-exercise exercise in.
However, that applies to so few individuals. And so, if you really like starttalking to individuals, it actually boils down to love threethings.
They lack motivation. Why train? Like, I don’t have the motivation to get began.
They lack consistency. They get began and so they stop, after which there’s no, they’re not going for any prolonged time frame. It’s on and off the wagon, is what I hear on a regular basis.
After which, fairly frankly, they discover train boring. Which is why we’re right here having this dialog at present. It justdoesn’t curiosity them. It’s like [00:10:00] working on the treadmill. The forms of modalities that we’ve put collectively aren’t pure for us and our human brains. , like, what are we working in direction of right here? And they also, all type ofcompound into the opposite overlaying drawback, which is it takes a very long time to see outcomes with regards to health.
So, as a result of we’re not seeing outcomes, we lose motivation, we lack consistency and train is boring. However these lots of of thousands and thousands of {dollars} aren’t going into fixing these issues. They’re going into like excessive tech, which is cool. I really like tech. I’m a technologist, however I like tech that solves an issue, and I don’t assume we’re fixing that drawback. Proper now.
Ryan DeLuca: Nice factors. Couldn’t have stated it higher.
Joshua Kozak: Come down from my soapbox now.
Ryan DeLuca: I believe we’re all on that soapbox. It’s an enormous soapbox. There’s a variety of room.
Preston Lewis: To transition slightly bit, you talked about HASfit. You had been early within the area, you bought scrappy with the precise manufacturing of issues, quickly created worth for a rising shopper base. You had been in a position to cut back the friction of going to the gymnasium, not even having to go to the gymnasium, however having the ability to get that gymnasium slash health expertise within the consolation of your individual house.
And had been you doing this [00:11:00] earlier than the P90X days or in the identical time?
Joshua Kozak: P90X had been round. That they had launched P90X and Madness, had been there two merchandise. That was earlier than they’d a complete suite, you realize, at thetime it was simply the 2 DVD choices. Yeah.
Preston Lewis: Yeah, so that you’re creating this content material tremendous early, as you talked about, you’re a technologist, utilizing the instruments you had at your disposal. Proper? Even when it was a crappy little camcorder or no matter, you simply went out and grabbed the tech and went after it. And it seems like,and we’ll get into this slightly bit later within the present, however you’re beginning to do this together with your subsequent enterprise.
However what sort of began to get you particularly in VR and AR, and a few of these different newer applied sciences which are coming?
Joshua Kozak: You sort of alluded to it already, butmy methodology all alongside has been to say, “What applied sciences are approaching, what developments are approaching which are what we will leverage to assist get individuals transferring.”
And you realize, the opposite factor I might add to what you simply stated about HASfit, is it was bandwidth enhance. It was simply at that time limit that bandwidth was quick sufficient to assist streaming video. There’s a purpose why Netflix began with mail and never streaming, proper?
It’s just like the speeds simply weren’t there. And so now we’re [00:12:00] getting into one other paradigm shift, the place there are new applied sciences approaching which have the chance to make train extra enjoyable, proper? I see that being the largest drawback after I look again at my expertise, and the place I’ve been, and the place we at the moment are and the place we’re headed. Is, what can we do to make train extra enjoyable?
And, you realize, VR, AR, and among the new applied sciences are creating alternative to not solely make it extra enjoyable, however then decrease that motivation threshold required to get transferring. It’s only a logical reply and subsequent step inwhat we will leverage, in comparison with the place lots of people are going proper now, simply going again to the final query, which is enchancment in sensor expertise. Which is nice, however that’s solely gonna assist the 5 % which are already doing every thing else proper.Do you will have any kinda magic moments if you first tried VR, and also you’re like, “Okay, wait a minute, it is a completely different tech, that is gonna be insanely highly effective”?
Yeah, that’s a great query. I don’t wanna say I’ll prefer to teardown different individuals’s merchandise, however like, after I attempt VR health merchandise I’m like, “Hey, that is actually cool, however man, I might do that, I might try this, I might do that completely different.” And so, I believe for me it was getting in after which [00:13:00] seeing the alternatives on what I at all times to look and steal or borrow what individuals are doing proper, after which enhance on the place I believe I can enhance.
What acquired thrilling was after I stated, “Look, listed below are the VR fitnessgames and functions that exist already, and actually, I believe there’s a lot room for enchancment.” However they’re already partaking individuals. So it’s like, “Wow, in the event that they’re working proper now like this, think about if X, Y, and Z had been to occur?”
So to me, that’s the thrilling half, is to see like how a lot is left, proper? How a lot enchancment is left.
Ryan DeLuca: I imply, on that observe, like, I believe we sort of all agree. Proper? We play sure video games like Beat Saber or different sort of related ones. It’s like, there’s one thing actually magical that occurs in VR, the immersive a part of it, and like, actually being into these experiences.
However, there does appear to be a lacking piece. And what we at all times sort of discuss is that development piece. Video games do such a great job of making these compulsion loops that make you wish to come again, and also you’ve invested time into this sport, and also you’vecreated issues within the personalization and the objective setting. Which a variety of the present experiences are fairly one dimensional; it’s simply do the exercise, do the exercise, and there’s rather more that connects all of it collectively.
Preston Lewis: Good level. I imply,piggybacking on that, too, what you might be seeing [00:14:00] is, after all everybody goes on the market and borrows patterns and learns new issues from new video games and this, that and the opposite.
It’s fascinating to see,we’re within the sort of early days of VR health, however it’s fascinating to see lots of people are going out and barely tweaking experiences, proper? Versus, and once more, we’ll get into your your, stuff, butit’s simply one other sort of ” slash sport”. Yeah, precisely.
Preston Lewis: So,actually to speak about what you bought arising. However, last item on the VR, AR aspect, are there any experiences there that you just’ve seen are the perfect ones on the market, particularly for VR, AR health?
Joshua Kozak: Yeah. I promise I’m not being paid to say this, however to me, Black Field VR is admittedly setting a bar fairly excessive.
Simply so it doesn’t sound like it is a paid promo, I’m gonna articulate in my very own phrases “why”. So it’s the differentiation between a gamified health expertise versus a health pushed sport. And I believe that’s a extremely necessary distinction, as a result of what you see most individuals available in the market doing at present, is that they’re simply taking regular train health after which they’re including factors, leaderboards and badges to it.
However that’s not a sport. You’re gamifying health, but it surely’s simply nonetheless health. In contrast [00:15:00] to what Black Field VR is doing, which is, a sport that occurs to be pushed by the health that you just’re doing. I might play Black Field VR with a management in a standard method, the place you’ll be able to’t say that about most VR health video games which are simply utilizing, like, regular actions and simply including factors to it.
Sothat’s what excites me, is that potential to take it to the following degree and never simply be a copycat arm swinger, rhythm sport like among the tasks on the market.
Ryan DeLuca: It undoubtedly wasn’t a paid promo. However, what’s your Venmo once more?
Joshua Kozak: Yeah, precisely.
Ryan DeLuca: You nailed it. I imply, that’s what’s our whole objective from the very starting. It’s like, how do you make it really a enjoyable sport first that you just’d wish to play and itch to return again, and thenadd on the health facet to it from there. Make sure that it’s an efficient health program, after all, as a result of I’d a lot quite simply play the controller if I’m not gonna get the health outcomes from it. So that you gotta just be sure you’re getting either side.
Joshua Kozak: In fact, yeah, after all. You gotta have each represented.
Preston Lewis: Yeah, superior. So once more, you’ve acquired all this historical past within the health area, a pioneer, you’ve tried all these VR, AR experiences, sort of been gathering these patterns, seeing how one can construct your individual product. And now you might be beginning a brand new [00:16:00] immersive health firm referred to as, is it Loodo?
Joshua Kozak: Yeah. Loodo. Loodo with a unique spelling in Latin is to play. So I simply sort of switched up the spelling there.
Ryan DeLuca: I used to be questioning when you use that.
Joshua Kozak: I wanna construct the Fortnite of health, which, you realize, is an formidable objective. However you don’t accomplish giant ambitions with out having that objective. To start out, it’s only a cell health sport utilizing your physique because the controller. Utilizing pc imaginative and prescient expertise to trace your physique and the actions that you just do and provide you with credit for these actions. And so, the play’s sort of amix between an limitless runner sport and a task participant sport the place you will have periods, ranges, quests, and periods begin at 5 minutes a chunk.
Cool. We noticed the video publish, I believe it was on Twitter or one thing. We noticed it pop up, seems tremendous compelling. So, why begin with cell?
Joshua Kozak: , this was like one thing that I toiled with for fairly a while. And, proper now it’s, accessibility, is what it it comes all the way down to.
, there’s the associated fee ofVR headsets, after which there’s nonetheless some movement illness challenges for some customers. After which the monitoring necessities that I want.We’re like, early, you realize,iPhone one section of the {hardware} improvement lifecycle. [00:17:00] So for me,I’ve chosen to get the sport on the market and be capable of present a really related expertise to what I’ll ultimately be capable of ship in AR, VR, however by way of cell, and get and speed up my studying.
So this manner I can get it out, I can begin studying, after which when the time is correct, we will port the sport over to AR, VR. After which I sort of alluded to it earlier, however the perfect analogy I’ve is the Netflix’s technique, proper? I imply, title d the corporate Netflix, they didn’t title it Mailbox Flick.
That was at all times the plan, however they needed to await the expertise to mature sufficient. It began simply mail order, after which it was largely mail order with like a fewstreaming choices, once more, as they waited for bandwidth to catch up. However then when bandwidth caught up, increase, they had been in place to take off.
Joshua Kozak: So if I had been to say “What playbook I’m, attempting torun proper now?”, that’s the playbook.
Preston Lewis: Yeah, that’s sensible. And once more, fast level to theaudience, all of this creation’s set within the context of what applied sciences can be found. What you’re doing is mainly you will have this concept of, okay, the VR, AR business is gonna be tremendous highly effective.Form of lean startup clever, utilizing what you [00:18:00] have, studying as rapidly as you’ll be able to, to iterate on the expertise. That’s actually sensible. So, when you wanna discuss what issues is Loodo fixing for?
Joshua Kozak: Yeah. , one we talked about earlier than. The low hanging fruit, which is the motivation and consistency aspect, proper? Making an attempt to eradicate thecognitive necessities that train locations on people at this time limit.
ButI’ll spend just a bit longer speaking about two others that perhaps aren’t as apparent. One is younger individuals. In our early buyer analysis we havea lot of youthful people which are tremendous concerned with what we’re doing. And we now have a variety of dad and mom of younger individuals concerned with signing up on the wait listing for his or her children, as a result of they’re like, “My children play too many video video games and perhaps it is a method I can really get them to maneuver.”
After which children have an interest as properly. So, you realize, like us older fellows which have been lifting weights and doing issues a standard method for fairly a while, it’s slightly more durable to show an outdated canine new tips. The place the newer era doesn’t have established habits but. So with this younger new era I don’t have to alter behaviors that will exist already. After which,the opposite factor that stood out in ourresearch is brief bouts of motion all through the day.
Loodo [00:19:00] can work two other ways. So once more, the degrees are 5 minutes. So you’ll be able to both take part in six back-to-back 5 minute ranges, and do a thirty minute full physique exercise. Or, when you work out of your desk all day, like, you realize, the three of us do, proper? And like, “Oh shoot, my again doesn’t really feel good. I acquired 5 minutes in between conferences. what? I wanna maintain my streak alive.” You may flip Loodo on, knock out 5 minutes, get your factors, get your streak going, and get again to your desk. So it additionally works for brief bouts of motion that may be added to any person’s present exercise routine with out essentially having to switch it as properly, simply to assist them get extra motion in all through the day.
Preston Lewis: Sensible. So, individuals that may profit are, would you say type ofthe normal inhabitants, or would you say particularly the youthful, early kinda adopters not having to alter their behaviors and issues?
Joshua Kozak: Yeah. , I’m an enormous fan of Present Me, Don’t Inform Me. And proper now I solely have Inform Me knowledge. I don’t have Present Me knowledge. However all of the Inform Me knowledge says that it’s really a extremely wide selection. We’ve got individuals on our wait listing from twelve years outdated as much as eighty years outdated. Yeah, I imply,I’ll provide you with a stat.
Fifteen % of the individuals on our ready listing are between sixty to eighty years outdated. So yeah, you realize, it’sa drawback [00:20:00] that folks have all throughout the board. And so whereas, sure, I’m actually seeking to seize, that eighty % of the those who aren’t exercising usually. The opposite perception that we’ve discovered is individuals which are exercising usually, they don’t essentially love what they’re doing. Yeah, they’ve constructed that behavior, however that doesn’t imply that they’re having fun with it, you realize? In order that they’re in search of one thing to maintain it recent and never boring, or additive to what they’re already doing, simply to get extra motion all through the day, or on off days.
Preston Lewis: True. Good level. Nicely, so what particularly makes Exergaming so highly effective, proper? So that you’re you’re particularly going to Exergaming, what are you seeing because the issues that make it so highly effective?
I sort of alluded to this earlier, however I believe it’simportant to double down on it, which is that it’s not simply including factors, badges on the leaderboard.
Joshua Kozak: That doesn’t make it a sport, if you’ll. So as a substitute, it’s all of the behavioral design parts which are gonna make that constructive influence. It’sthe craft of deriving all of the enjoyable and fascinating parts present in video games, and making use of them to train, in order that individuals are pulled into train versus having to be pushed into.
, that’s a keydistinction. I discussed having to go get a session in later. [00:21:00] I’m gonna must push myself into that. It’s not like being pulled into it, like the place I am going do a thirty minute XBox session. Like these are two completely various things. To me, that’s what makes it so highly effective, it’s that push versus pull.
Ryan DeLuca: That’s such a great level. We discuss rather a lot at Black Field concerning the hooked mannequin, how individuals create habits round new merchandise. And also you probablyheard of it, the e book by Nir. It kinda made me take into consideration what we talked about earlier with HASfit is, you stated, “You don’t know the place they’re earlier than they press play in your video.” Proper? Right now’s video, you solely know them after they hit play, after they did the exercise? And there’s not a lot getting into between all of that, proper? So if hitting play is mainly just like the motion, proper, from the hooked mannequin. Then after that, there’s gotta be a variable reward. And often with exercise streaming companies, you do get slightly little bit of a reward. Clearly you be ok with your self and dopamine and endorphins, and issues like that from doing the exercise. However you additionally get a variety of adverse, you get the ache of the exercise, you’re drained, you sacrificed time you would have been doing one thing else.
, there’s the funding that they’ve given into this, and also you get one thing again from it. Quite a lot of occasions, these streaming companies, as soon as once more, you might need invested into your monitoring, proper? So now I’ve acquired my streak, I’ve acquired some calorie burning there, and I’ve invested that. [00:22:00] After which there’s gotta be some sort of set off to deliver them again, proper? So the entire thought is there’s a set off that brings you again into it.
Video games are actually good, particularly cell video games, proper? They’re so good about push notification; you could come again in, as a result of you could do that factor or this timer simply acquired carried out. Or a standard sport you’re gonna play with your folks, or there’s a match or one thing enjoyable occurring. Doing that motion after which getting that reward. The place, it seems like with Loodo, the objective, as with actually good Exergaming kind of techniques, is to finish that loop versus simply the motion section.
How do you’re feeling about that and,have you ever seen that, that appears to make sense?
That aligns with the best way I’m pondering as properly. I believe Nir does some actually great things. If we’re speaking about behavioral design, my favourite, researcher is Ukai Chao, when you, get to learn his actionable insights.
Joshua Kozak: Yeah,I inform us this framework. So, very related in that understanding, how we will deliver individuals alongside, and actually simply get individuals to carry out therequirements of the sport, which on this case is train, with out having a deep cognitive load about it.
, the factor I discussed, too, earlier… the massive drawback with train is it takes too lengthy to see outcomes. On this method, we will get you in, and 5 minutes in you’re seeing outcomes. You’re getting factors, you [00:23:00] leveled up, you went by way of like three, 4 achievements.
Like, “Oh, I noticed outcomes immediately.” And so there are completely different kind of end result, however we’re already in a position to reward. After which, the objective is that we get you in lengthy sufficient the place then like, “Holy cow, wait a minute, there’s a complete one other end result occurring with my bodily actual physique right here, not simply within the app.”
So we now have to maintain individuals hooked, if you’ll, to make use of like Nir’s phrase, lengthy sufficient to see these actual world outcomes. And that’s the facility this kind of design allows.
Preston Lewis: That’s such a great level. We discuss that on a regular basis. It’s so true, as a result of even when you realize every thing about health and consuming, it takes so lengthy to truly see outcomes, proper? To truly see that dopamine splash of progress. And as you guys are mentioning, video video games are the other, proper? You might be in Legends of Zelda or one thing, and you’ve got your little sword and also you hit the primary little chest and increase, first dopamine. After which having the ability to not solely observe that progress, however be capable of string these little wins collectively.
I believe we’re all saying it, however that’s what we’re additionally seeing that’s essentially the most highly effective with Exergaming, as a result of even in our private lives… a member of the family, proper? I’ve a variety of relations that know we’re within the health business and so they’re like, “Hey, are you able to please assist me [00:24:00] out?”
And up to now it’s been like, okay, cool. “Right here’s your diet plan. Right here’s what you could do each single day.” After which unquestionably, with out fail, two weeks in, they’re like, ” I’m heavier on the dimensions. What’s occurring?” Becasue now they’re retaining water, and so they’re like, “I quit.”
Joshua Kozak: Constructing muscle.
Yep. And so they don’t get it. And,to your guys’ level, the Exergaming aspect of that, permits us to shorten these suggestions loops and get individuals hooked, to the place they appear down, perhaps they’ve their abs coming in and so they’ve really created a wholesome behavior. I’m gonna take thirty extra seconds on this, as a result of I can’t assist myself. . And simply say that, our brains 200 years in the past had been used to lengthy suggestions cycles, proper? We had been farming, we plant the seeds within the Spring and we harvest within the Fall. Like, we’re used to issues taking a very long time.
Every part takes a very long time. “I’ve been attempting to find every week and I haven’t caught something, as a result of I solely catch one thing as soon as each ten days. After which I get to satisfy no matter.” Proper? That’s the best way we had been programmed. However now, greater than ever, even the distinction in three to 4 years from Instagram being the primary high canine to TikTok being the primary high canine.
Even that’s like an instantaneous gratification change, proper? It’s simply sooner, and sooner, and sooner. So the best way that we’re wiring all of our [00:25:00] brains, inadvertently, just isn’t arrange for fulfillment with regards to expectations on train.
Preston Lewis: Nice level.
Nicely, we coated a variety of nice stuff at present, actually recognize it. However I’d like to complete up with, the place do you assume VR, AR health, Exergaming… the place’s it gonna go within the subsequent, three to 5 years? And what’s subsequent for you and Loodo? I believe actually, hopefully as we sort of alluded to transferring previous simply rhythm video games, and transferring into extra full-fledged video games, builders are gonna begin utilizing all of the instruments that they’ve accessible to them to evolve these health VR experiences.
Joshua Kozak: After which I believe, as this, let’s name it Nice Land Seize, New Land Seize, that at all times occurs with any new expertise, each train modality will probably be represented and gamified in a roundabout way, proper?
There’s gonna be a Pilates VR sport, there’s gonna be The Yoga, there’s gonna be The HIIT, so the person modalities will begin being represented. The sport can add worth to that modality. So I see that actually increasing.
After which once more, together with theadoption of VR, AR headsets expertise adopts, in parallel to it. And so what does that imply for Loodo? Nicely, Loodo proper now could be in clearly the [00:26:00] early studying phases and we’re attempting to know exactlyhow we will leverage these sport mechanics that we’ve been speaking about to get individuals movingwith cell, after which increasing to AR and VR experiences. I see a possibility for each of these. And once more, leaning in direction of the house person, the person with restricted to no gear, simply making it the bottom barrier to entry, making it as accessible as potential. And for people who wish to test it out, study extra, you’ll be able to go to GetLoodo, that’s GetLoodo.com, to affix the wait listing.
Preston Lewis: Superior. That’s so nice. That’s on a regular basis we now have, we’re slightly bit over, however such nice stuff. Actually recognize you being right here. And to our viewers, as you realize, we’ll put the URL you talked about, Josh, within the present notes, in addition to anycontact data to get in contact with Josh.Thanks once more for being right here.
Ryan DeLuca: Yep. Actually recognize it. You get this in a method that I believe all people’s gonna get it quickly, proper? Video video games, the psychology of video video games and these new applied sciences that permit us to make use of these applied sciences for health.
And, uh, be sure to get that Venmo concerning the good phrase you stated about Black Field.
Joshua Kozak: I’ll get that over to you.
Ryan DeLuca: Yeah. Make sure that.
Joshua Kozak: It’s [00:27:00] been a pleasure, all. Thanks a lot.
Preston Lewis: Thanks a lot, Josh.
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